Eighteen Years, Six IVF Cycles, and One Miracle: Dr. Dina Wilson’s Story

Dr. Dina Wilson is a hospitalist physician in Oregon, a fierce advocate for fertility awareness, and a mother who waited eighteen years to hold her son. Her journey spans misdiagnoses, six IVF cycles across multiple clinics, complete embryo arrest — cycle after cycle — a pandemic pregnancy, and a six-figure bill paid entirely out of pocket. She is now in the middle of trying for a second child.

This episode is for anyone who has ever felt like the system is not designed for them, but they're not quite ready to give up on their dream of parenthood. 

In this episode:

• How Dina was sent away by three OBGYNs in her 20's without an infertility evaluation
• Why she and her husband shelved fertility treatment through medical school, residency, and debt repayment — and what that cost them
• Walking into her first IVF cycle completely naive — and planning a party around the retrieval date
• The phone call on day three that changed everything: complete embryo arrest, then cycle after cycle, across multiple clinics
• What it felt like to be told by one of the most prominent REIs in the country that he wasn’t sure he had anything else to offer
• How in vitro maturation (IVM) — a low-stimulation protocol with early retrieval — finally produced embryos that implanted
• Getting pregnant on her sixth IVF cycle with day three embryos, against all odds, right before the pandemic shut everything down
• The guilt and shame that comes with being a physician who didn’t know what she didn’t know — and why that guilt is so expensive
• Secondary infertility: what it’s like to want another child, and how the grief shifts but doesn’t disappear
• How Dina finally learned to set boundaries at work so she could show up for her fertility treatment — including switching jobs to get the flexibility she needed
• Why shame cannot survive in community — and what it means to share your story when you’re still in the middle of it

Find Dr. Dina Wilson:

• Instagram: @doctordina

Transcript

Dr. Erica Bove (00:02)
Hello, my loves, and welcome back to the Love and Science Podcast. I have an amazing guest today, Dr. Dina Wilson. She's a friend, she's a colleague, she is a female physician with an incredibly long fertility journey, which we're so grateful that she's going to share today. Dr. Dina, it's so great to have you. Thank you for being on the podcast.

Dr. Dina Wilson (00:20)
Well, thank you so much for having me. I I feel so honored to be able to use your platform to share my story and spread awareness.

Dr. Erica Bove (00:29)
Yeah, absolutely. And I know your Instagram platform, you use that as well. So we'll make sure that everybody has all your information in the show notes. Cause I think we all want to make sure that, you know, people like us have had success. You know, I think it's it's terrifying to think that we might get through the end of this without a child or without, you know, it's like, when is this going to happen or how much longer I'm going to have to do this? And you know, I'm hoping we can talk a little bit about your own journey today. you know, in terms of like,

How it all started, how it was going, how you got through it, all those things, because I think especially being a female physician with infertility, it's just it's a really big mountain to climb. but I also wanted to share for context. So you are a hospitalist in the Pacific Northwest in Oregon specifically, right? Correct. Yes. Yeah. You went to med school a little bit later. You started at thirty. What did you do before medical school?

Dr. Dina Wilson (01:19)
so I was a clinical laboratory scientist is what they call them now, or previously known as MedTech. So we were the people who sit behind the scenes in the lab and do all the testing that doctors send to the lab. So, you know, the C B Cs, the chemistries, the cultures, you know, PCRs basically learn the nitty gritty of all the testing and yeah, it was a great background to have.

Dr. Erica Bove (01:43)
Yeah, absolutely. And then what made you decide you wanted to go to med school? Like how did that shift for you?

Dr. Dina Wilson (01:51)
you know, I always had the desire but never really had the confidence to go after it. I just, you know, didn't feel good enough or smart enough or so I shelved it for a long time. And then actually when I met my now husband, he was in the process of applying to medical school. So being there firsthand, kind of witnessing the process and and seeing that

you know, these people are normal people like you and me and you know, there's no like deity or whatever that we hold doctors up to, you know, like they're

Dr. Erica Bove (02:23)
Yeah.

Dr. Dina Wilson (02:24)
so it just kinda helped me realise like, okay. So basically there's trained and untrained. I can I can learn, you know, I can go and learn how to be a doctor. I can get trained and so once I got the confidence and, you know, did the prerequisites and the MCAT and all that, finally made my way.

to starting at thirty.

Dr. Erica Bove (02:46)
Beautiful. And tell me a little bit more about like when you met your husband and all this, what your vision of motherhood was. Some people always knew they wanted to be a mom since they were a little girl. Other people that sort of evolved with time. Sometimes actually after meeting a partner, they're like, well, you know, now my my my thoughts have shifted. What was that process like for you?

Dr. Dina Wilson (03:06)
man. Yeah, I'm one of those that kind of knew ever since she was itty bitty. She wanted to be a mom. you know, it was just very early. I had a a y baby brother and that, you know, I always wanted to hold him and carry him and take care of him. But, you know, fast forward, you know, years later, I met my husband. Actually, I was really lucky. We met early. I was twenty three at the time, was married by twenty four because

We crossed paths in the lab right when he was in the process of applying, got accepted to medical school. And so when we were meeting, dating and getting engaged, he needed to move to start his journey. So yeah, we met and married early on and we talked about family and what that would look like. I always wanted at least four kids. I I went from six to four through time, I call.

Dr. Erica Bove (04:00)
Yeah.

Dr. Dina Wilson (04:02)
yeah, and so

i in the beginning he wasn't wanting to start off immediately because he knew he would be, you know, consumed with training and medicine. So we were like, okay, we'll put it off for a couple of years and then reassess from there.

Dr. Erica Bove (04:19)
Mm. And then tell me then tell me then what happened from then.

Dr. Dina Wilson (04:23)
So yeah, I mean unfortunately I got my diagnosis early, but not in the way you would think. probably a couple years into being married, I went and wanted to get evaluated by an OB because I never did go on birth control. I we just thought we were that good, you know, like the timing was was spot on and anyway.

The doc at the time did all the testing, ran some basic labs, told me everything was was normal and that I was young and not to worry. And so I kinda took that to mean, okay, well I'm good. And then waited like a

Dr. Erica Bove (05:06)
Like twenty five ish, twenty five ish?

Dr. Dina Wilson (05:08)
Twenty five ish, yeah.

Dr. Erica Bove (05:10)
Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Dr. Dina Wilson (05:13)
And then another year from there, same thing with a different doctor, exact same presentation, like, you're young, don't worry about it. And same thing with unfortunately happened three times basically. And during that interval, I mean n neither one of us were trained medically, so we didn't really know how to advocate for ourselves or to even know to advocate or to know that

you know, there is something awry and that maybe a referral to reproductive endocrinology would a would be nice. Or so we just didn't know. We were like, okay, like they're doctors. Okay, that's great. So then

Dr. Erica Bove (05:52)
my gosh, like it just makes my heart. I know. I mean I I get it. We see it. There's so many reasons for it, but it's just like, man, it was like you had access to medical care. You were there. It was just like people were like, you're young. Did they did anybody check your tubes? Did anybody check the sperm? Like you said they check labs, but we know there's some more.

Dr. Dina Wilson (06:12)
The story. I think one of them did sperm testing, but it was all labs. I don't recall any ultrasounds or HSGs or anything like that.

Dr. Erica Bove (06:22)
Wow. Okay. So at what point did you finally see an REI and how much longer was that?

Dr. Dina Wilson (06:28)
So unfortunately, you know, once I got evaluated by the OBs at in that interval, I decided I wanted to pursue medicine myself. So I we just kind of shelved it. We were like, Well, you know, something's going on, but we'll just do IVF. Like seriously, that was our motto. Like, well, we'll just do IVF maybe at some point if if it doesn't happen. And so I started medical school in two thousand eight and

You know, finished in 2012, went on to internal medicine residency, finished residency in 2015. And you know, nowhere in that time did we have like time. You know how the medical system is in the training. Like there's no luxury of going to an OB or going to an REI or any of that. Like, okay. and then by 2015, we you know, I was officially done training, he was finished, and

We were in a ton of debt. We couldn't afford IVF. So and we didn't have coverage, you know. We were both employed and had insurance and it just didn't cover anything.

Dr. Erica Bove (07:37)
You were thirty seven? Thirty

Dr. Dina Wilson (07:39)
Yeah, thirty seven ish, yeah.

Dr. Erica Bove (07:42)
thirty seven. Okay. So now you've been like over a decade of of of living your lives and nothing connecting. Okay.

Dr. Dina Wilson (07:51)
Yeah, nothing. Yeah. Okay.

Dr. Erica Bove (07:54)
Then you're in debt and you're like, well, our plan was always to do IBF, but we can't really access IBF.

We can't afford IV, right.

Dr. Dina Wilson (08:02)
We can't afford it. And I mean, my husband was really reluctant to to do it, you know, with you know, two pairs of student loans that we had. So we went balls to the walls working basically to pay off everything. Like we just worked as hard as we can. Paid paid most of it off. And then finally, in twenty sixteen started IBF.

Dr. Erica Bove (08:29)
Wow. Wow.

So like let's just pause a second and think about your mindset at that point. Like what do you do you remember? Sometimes it like we we I delete memories if I don't want to remember them. Sometimes things all run together like a big blur. But if you are to like close your eyes and think about that time of your life, what do you remember about that time when you had finished training? You had just worked so hard and to pay off significant debt and then you're about to start IPF. What were you thinking?

Dr. Dina Wilson (08:58)
I mean quite frankly, because of how naive I was, I was very excited. Like I just thought, here it is, like I am going to have my family. And yeah, I was super excited 'cause I was so clueless, obviously. Sorry, I'm getting choked.

Dr. Erica Bove (09:16)
No, no, no. Thank you so much for sharing. I think I mean this is so relatable, right? And I think, you know, we're taught, especially in medicine, problem solution, diagnosis, treatment plan. And that if you just can make the diagnosis that everybody's gonna get better from whatever it is. I mean, we understand oncology, that's like a different realm, but for the most part, if you can just think hard enough about what's going on and figure it out, then medicine is gonna is gonna be the answer. It's gonna, you know.

Trump everything else. And that I think that's the thing that I've really learned myself personally and professionally through the medical journey, you know, is that it really is not true. It really is not true. But I think going in with this expectation and and I think sometimes too, you know, I try not to be guilty of this myself, but to say, how can we set reasonable expectations from the beginning, just like you say on your website that like, you know, IBF.

sometimes takes more than one try, but but I don't think that that's disclosed enough in the beginning to say, hey, this might be a long journey. This might be, this might take, you know, months to years. You might need more than one cycle. Like just prepare people that it's the marathon and not the sprint.

Dr. Dina Wilson (10:32)
Absolutely. I couldn't agree more.

Yeah.

Dr. Erica Bove (10:35)
you did your first cycle.

Dr. Dina Wilson (10:38)
Yeah, did the first cycle completely oblivious, so much so that we decided to have an IVF party. So invited a bunch of my medical medical school friends in various states who would also finish. So we were celebrating, you know, finishing residency on going on to attending hood and I was like, well, you know, we're doing IVF, but if we time it around my retrieval, then we can just, you know, hang out and party and explore Oregon afterwards. So about three or four of them flew in.

And cycle went great. I responded beautifully. you know, tolerated everything. We had seventeen eggs retrieved. My REI was ecstatic. I remember her coming to the post stop recovery or the post procedure area and she was like, We got seventeen and we were thrilled and then the next day, you know, we were hanging out like in the Columbia River Gor

in Oregon and we got the call that you know eight fertilize and my husband and I hugged each other and we thought, my gosh, what are we gonna do with eight? Like eight kids. We can't have eight kids. This is crazy. Like we and I mean Yeah. So you know they tell you you're you're gonna get the day five call and then we were at Cannon Beach getting ready to go have lunch and my phone started ringing and I thought, my gosh, this is weird. Why are they calling me on day three?

It's just two days early, you know, and and I just hear this liter like squeal or scream. I don't even know. It was so traumatizing. But it was the embryologist and she's like, I don't know what happened, but all your embryos arrested and I have no idea what's going on. I've never seen anything like this.

And you know, Erica, like that moment sometimes you have moments in your life where you feel like just time literally stands still, like everything stops. Yeah.

Dr. Erica Bove (12:33)
Yep.

And that that happened, right?

I'm so sorry.

So then at some point you I know, so much so much space and grace and you know, they think these things are so emotional. And like when I tear up on podcasts, I I say it's like a sign how important this is and how much grief there still can be. You know, spoiler alert, you became a mom, but like to think about all those hard moments is just like it's really, really hard and so so grateful that you're sharing your story here.

Dr. Dina Wilson (13:08)
chorus, of course. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean just to fast forward because it's so it was a long journey. We we did another cycle, different protocol, got six eggs a second time. So same thing, exact same outcome, day three, embryo rest. And you know, by then I had, you know, just asked around a lot.

I I believe I joined the physician group too and learned about day three transfers and different things and I've learned I learned, you know, I was able to glean hope that hey, this day three arrest wasn't such like a crazy anomaly in the sense that, yeah, it does happen. It wasn't, you know, just this isolated case.

Dr. Erica Bove (13:55)
Yeah.

Dr. Dina Wilson (13:56)
So that was in a bit reassuring, gave me hope.

But I had asked my REI and clinic at the time and she basically looked at me and said, If you want a day three transfer, you need to go to a different clinic.

So that was a big

Dr. Erica Bove (14:12)
Hello.

Right. Right. 'Cause that's a delay. You gotta start over with somebody else, you gotta wait to get in and and it was it because their clinic did not offer day three, like their lab? Yeah. They just didn't do it.

Dr. Dina Wilson (14:26)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So individual

Dr. Erica Bove (14:30)
Care, you know, I really, really do believe we should be offering that nuanced care, but but that but I think you bring up a good point, Dina, is that there is a lot of variation. And I think, you know, one thing I love to help people with is to sort of ask some of the questions in the beginning that can help people understand. You know, the hard part is nobody thinks it's gonna be them, right? But to say, okay, how do you handle the harder cases? You know, what you know, who's your urologist who you work with?

What are your thoughts on day three transfers? What are your thoughts on PTT? Tell me about your lab success rates. How do you handle unexpected outcomes? Like I, you know, to be a active, it's like being an active citizen, to be an active participant in the healthcare, you just don't know what you don't know. Right. And so I think, you know, I I love helping people ask these questions from the beginning when I chose my OB,

I wanted to know who could do the fastest stat C section because I was an OBGYN resident and knew that that was like I just expected to have a need for a crash section. And I wanted to know at the outset if that happened, who would be the best one to do it? It's the same thing with IVF. You know, if I I again, this is just how I that we we're female positions, like we can't unsee the things we've seen. So it's like, you know, anybody who's listening can have an unexpected outcome.

an IVF or otherwise. And so how does how to plant the seeds on the early side? How to ask those questions. And then to give yourself the permission, if you do need something more nuanced, you know, no harm, no foul. Like I always want my patients to go where they can get the best care. If we don't offer something in our clinic, guess what? Go somewhere else. I will help ease that transition. But you know, at that point it was clear that after two unsuccessful cycles, you had to move on. And I I know that's it's disappointing. It's almost like a breakup, you know?

Dr. Dina Wilson (16:20)
yeah. It was it was very tough. and and I love everything that you said. I just wanna yeah, just double heart what you just said because I wish I'd had someone like you in my corner back then. You know, I feel like a lot has happened in the fertility space since I was going through it in the beginning and

I mean, having someone like you who knows all the nuances, not only as an REI but as a coach and just I just I think that's such an incredible resource for women out there.

Dr. Erica Bove (16:55)
Thank you. We educate and we empower, right? Because you don't know what you don't know. And I mean, my own mother just had my own mother just had a major health issue in the spring. And, you know, that was out of my wheelhouse, right? My wheelhouse is REI. Like ICU, cardiac stuff, way out of my wheelhouse. And I was just so humbled by how many female physician colleagues came and called and said, How can I help? What decisions do you have to make? How can I

Help orient you to our welcome to our foreign country of you know cardiac surgery. Like I So

Dr. Dina Wilson (17:30)
It's just

Dr. Erica Bove (17:32)
as a female, like I think the hard part, and I want to get into this in a little bit too, is like as female physicians, I think we think we should understand this. You're like, well, I've been to medical school, so clearly I must understand all the things about all these nuanced areas of medicine. So we feel like shame, even that we're not able to bring about our own successful outcome.

And so I think we have to remind ourselves, like just like I needed help from my C T surgery friends and my cardiology friends and all the things that I didn't know in medicine to help me as a physician daughter, you know, do my best in that situation. We all need people who know and breathe. It's like their zone of genius,

Dr. Dina Wilson (18:14)
Well, and just like most female docs out there and I I'm sure who've been on your podcast, I mean that's been a big source of guilt and just I don't know, emotional torture for me is having the unexplained diagnosis not be able to find the answer. That's been something I str yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Erica Bove (18:33)
Right. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, obviously I'm sure that resonates with so many listeners. Like, you know, what what helped you as a female physician who you're making diagnoses like every day, right? For people. And so

What was that like and what what do you think we can do to help to help with that? And I I have some ideas too and it but I think it's useful to to take a moment and think through it because that is so resonant for so many people, especially female physicians on this on this podcast.

Dr. Dina Wilson (19:06)
What helped like being the physician and not having an answer? Is that what you're

Dr. Erica Bove (19:11)
Well

yeah, what what helped you and like as you think about how hard that has been to have this diagnosis of unexplained infertility, like what has helped you navigate that frustration, that black box, that inability to have answers?

Dr. Dina Wilson (19:27)
I mean to be totally frank with you, I don't know if I've ever been able to completely come to peace with it other than knowing, you know, even as a doctor, I don't always have the answers. Like I don't. I can literally throw a person in an MRI machine and get every image and run every lab and I still can't explain their symptoms. So in that sense, I know medicine isn't perfect and you know, obviously there's something going on, but we're just

I'm not in a time and place where maybe I'll be able to know at this where science currently is. Yeah. But it's just something I've had to I guess accept. Yeah.

Dr. Erica Bove (20:08)
Yeah, right. And that that you bring up a really good point that it's sometimes acceptance is like we resist, we avoid, we have the grief stages, we get angry and and nothing is ever done. You know, we go through these stages and then we go through them again, right? It's like it's like a spiral. But I think, you know, realizing that in twenty twenty six or whatever year that you were going through this, like it sounds like maybe six plus years ago, that, you know, there is I tell my patients with unexplained infertility, there is something.

You ha you have a you have a diagnosis. We just don't have a name for it beyond infertility. And there's probably something genetic. We're learning more and more genetic things about how people's eggs undergo meiosis and mitosis and you know, just all the different things. It's in fertility is so complex in terms of all the things that have to happen right to bring about a baby. Like it is like at the level of the endometrium and the egg and the sperm and the embryo. I mean, it is so complicated and so.

I'm I'm amazed that anybody is here, honestly, when I actually think about it. And so then to think about the fact that we have all these genetic things we've never we we haven't yet figured out. And yes, we have tools in the toolkit. It is very unsatisfying not to have a diagnosis. But I think you leave no stone unturned in the year that you're in. And like you said, do everything you can to bring about your successful outcome and at some level accept the gray and the lack of concrete answers.

Dr. Dina Wilson (21:38)
Exactly. Yeah.

Dr. Erica Bove (21:40)
So, okay, so here we are. You've done two cycles. Then tell me what happened after that.

Dr. Dina Wilson (21:46)
So after two cycles, we decided to go to Washington. there was an REI there who got really good reviews in terms of just being compassionate, employing shared decision making and you know, being a big advocate. So we went there, we did two cycles there as well. she was amazing. She was just just so amazing. Like she wanted so hard to to have this work for us and she consulted with her own

attending who she worked with in Cornell, like, you know, ran our entire case by him and he basically came up with our protocol and you know, everything went great. We perfect STEM, perfect like I mean we'd got I don't you know, we our average was, you know, ten, fifteen eggs every cycle and they'd all arrest on day three, just complete

embryo arrest on that third one. Then the fourth cycle or the third cycle, she let me do a tr a fresh day three transfer. It didn't work. and we tried to push the rest of blast and they arrested. And then on cycle four, we kind of we had a hard time with the whole like what should we do? She really wanted to push the blastocyst and at that point I was so traumatized. I was like

I'm not sure I can do this anymore. And so anyway, we pushed them all to blast. We and they all arrested. And she in so many words insinuated like she felt like she was done, like not because she didn't want to, she just didn't know what else to do. Yeah.

Dr. Erica Bove (23:26)
Right. Right.

She's like, you have done four cycles, you all the tools in my toolkit. At that point, had anybody checked DNA fragmentation?

Dr. Dina Wilson (23:34)
Yes.

Dr. Erica Bove (23:36)
That was checked. It was normal. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Dina Wilson (23:38)
Mm yeah, that was normal. Yeah.

then

I heard from the physician fertility group basically someone recommended you know CCRM and they said you know they have a really good lab, lots of success there, and I don't is it o so I went there and met with Dr. Schoolcraft actually. I don't know, you can Yeah. And Yeah. you know, and he he he's very

he's very f up front and you know, will tell you like it is and he basically was like, Well, you've proven yourself several times at reputable labs. I'm not really sure I have anything to else to offer. He you know, he was like at your age, you know, by then I'm forty one, I think. You know, at forty one you're less or less than ten percent and I I don't really know

If we can do anything different. He he is like, Well, you know, we're we're doing this IVM thing. Maybe we can give it a try. There's been some patients who've had success forming blasts using this protocol. So

Dr. Erica Bove (24:42)
And that's in in vit in vitromaturation. Right. Mm-hmm. Right. In vitromaturation. Yeah. Just if anybody is listening and they don't know what that is, that means that you take out the eggs and then of the immature eggs, you mature them in the lab and then fertilize them and then make embryos.

Dr. Dina Wilson (25:03)
Correct. Yeah. And it involves like way lower doses of meds, very like minimal STEM, early retrieval, very early retrieval for me at least. so we did two retrievals. but the first retrieval, you know, the plan was to push the blast. And I remember we were in the Colorado airport getting ready to fly home and they called and said that Dr. Schoolcraft is looked at your embryos, you know, he physically looked at them and

He felt like they were lagging behind in growth. So he's recommending a freeze all one day three. And I was just devastated. I just remember s just bawling again because, you know, in our mind this was gonna be the answer, right? Like this was gonna be like when we first walked up to clinic, my husband still teases me because I was like, it's the magic kingdoms. This is where all the magic happens.

But anyway, yeah, we froze them. We were like, Well, whatever you recommend we'll do. And then, you know, we we followed with another retrieval and froze again on day three. And then, you know, I remember doing our follow-up visit and I said, Well, what are we gonna do with these day threes? And he was like, We're gonna transfer them. And so we did our very first FET.

frozen embryo transfer in December of twenty nineteen. We transferred four day three embryos and lo and behold, one of them stuck. And then in March they declared the pandemic.

Yeah.

Dr. Erica Bove (26:40)
That is wild.

When you reflect on the fact that you got pregnant on your sixth IVF cycle with a day three transfer, like given less than 10% chance of success, is there anything that you can look back on? Like, obviously you trusted your gut, you changed clinics, you were your biggest, fiercest advocate. Is there anything that you can explain this? Like,

Or do you feel like if finally just that soul that was meant to be yours came to be yours? Like, what do you make of it? What do you make of it?

Dr. Dina Wilson (27:18)
I mean I it does I think so many things, but obviously I I do believe that his soul that was meant to be, you know, was he just kinda waiting, I guess, for the vessel to be ready. I don't know. But I mean just having a knowing, like a knowing in your gut and not not afraid to take the road less traveled. I mean, I just had to

know that I don't fit in this box that people are trying to put me in, you know? and the funny thing is that that was gonna be our very last cycle. Like we had grieved and come to terms with, you know, if it didn't work, we were done.

Dr. Erica Bove (28:07)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Wow.

Dr. Dina Wilson (28:10)
Yeah.

Dr. Erica Bove (28:12)
I do I do anecdotally see that when people do surrender in that way and say, okay, like I I can no longer be attached to this. I I'm gonna hope for the best. But if this doesn't work, like we have to move on. Like I do find that people who are in that mindset, the treatments seem to work better. And I I can't explain it. I mean, I think there's probably some nervous system connection, there's probably some HPA access.

You know, difference again, we we are meaning makers, so we try to find meaning where it is. But I will say that when I see people truly surrender to the process and whatever way that means for them, it just it just tends to work better. I want to bottle it up. I really do. but I can't because that's that's just yeah. Surrender is a hard process that we undergo.

Dr. Dina Wilson (29:04)
It is.

Dr. Erica Bove (29:06)
does that resonate for do you feel like you were in that sort of an emotional mindset?

Or no?

Dr. Dina Wilson (29:13)
I mean, yes and no. I mean I feel like I mean, I'll never know, right? 'Cause I said it and we that was the plan, but I I'll never know had it not worked, would we like what would we have tried again or you know? Right. It's funny because during the two week wait I was so upset because obviously I was testing early and I was getting that stupid like, you know, what do they call it? The evap lines on the

Dr. Erica Bove (29:40)
Yeah.

Dr. Dina Wilson (29:43)
You know, I was losing my mind. I was exercising like a crazy woman, I don't know, hours on on the Peloton bike. Everything they tell you not to do. And I told my husband, I was like, Well, maybe maybe we need to look at this donor thing, like just give it a like I don't know, go watch videos. And he was so mad at me, he's like, We don't even know yet. Like we're in our two week way.

Dr. Erica Bove (30:08)
It's a

Dr. Dina Wilson (30:10)
Just all the feelings just

came out, you know, just unleashed. And you know, when they did my beta it was eleven and they called me and told me to expect a chemical transfer or

Dr. Erica Bove (30:26)
Far

do you remember how far after your transfer that was? I mean, usually after day three, it's like 11-ish days because that's around the time of the miss period.

Dr. Dina Wilson (30:34)
Yeah, I think there was a a misunderstanding. They tested me early on day nine. Maybe

Dr. Erica Bove (30:41)
Got it.

Dr. Dina Wilson (30:42)
because they hardly ever do day three training.

Dr. Erica Bove (30:46)
Again, you were outside of their box, outside of the protocol.

Dr. Dina Wilson (30:49)
Yes, exactly. I threw them all for a loop and nobody nobody caught it until the second beta. A nurse one nurse realized that we were off with our betas. So she's like, my God, wait a minute.

Dr. Erica Bove (31:03)
What was your second beta? Do you remember?

Dr. Dina Wilson (31:06)
I wanna say it was like in the sixties or something.

Dr. Erica Bove (31:09)
Okay,

okay, fine. So we wouldn't have flagged that as anything abnormal. That's so again you had that like blip in the system where you're like, my gosh, I'm pregnant, but this is, you know, very cautious and that it wasn't it was like a false alarm even, you know. Right.

Dr. Dina Wilson (31:24)
Yeah.

Yeah. It was just so crazy.

Dr. Erica Bove (31:27)
And then how

how was the pregnancy after all of that trying, you know, after years of years and years of seeking and treatments and everything? Like do you feel like you were on eggshells? Do you yeah?

Dr. Dina Wilson (31:44)
Totally. I mean eighteen years

I mean the first few months were just insane. and it was just all anxiety, like this isn't happening, something bad's gonna happen. I kept thinking it was a blighted ovum and you know, my husband, he's an ER doctor, he'd have to like go and look up PubMed and show me the data. Show me show me like after so many betas, what are the risks and you know

he blessed him. He had to work really hard on my anxiety. and then, you know, of course there was the the trauma of like COVID and him not being able to come in on the ultrasounds. They had a a wild woman on their hand. Yeah. Wow.

Dr. Erica Bove (32:27)
I remember that. Ooh. Terrible time. Yeah. Wow.

Eighteen years, my friend. Wow.

Dr. Dina Wilson (32:34)
Eighteen years. Yeah. It's just I I still can't believe it. Yeah. but once I kinda I think got through that first heartbeat and then the subsequent ultrasounds, I I started to to calm down a little bit. And yeah. Other than that, it was a great, beautiful pregnancy. Yeah.

Dr. Erica Bove (32:54)
And I would imagine, I mean, I don't did insurance cover any of this for you, the IVF?

Dr. Dina Wilson (33:00)
No, no. It was all

Dr. Erica Bove (33:01)
Have

you totaled have you totaled how much you probably

Dr. Dina Wilson (33:05)
I mean we have an idea but we d it's just too traumatizing to say.

Dr. Erica Bove (33:13)
Yeah, I I mean I would venture to say six figures at least.

Dr. Dina Wilson (33:17)
for sure. Yeah.

Dr. Erica Bove (33:18)
I would

venture to say like easily six figures.

Dr. Dina Wilson (33:21)
At least, yeah. yeah. That was that was our first one.

first journey. Your first journey. Yeah.

We decided after having Zaid, you know, obviously having him, we were like, all we want is one, we'll be done, it's over. Like just please God give us our baby. And then I don't know. It was just the amount of love and just a joy that he brought to our life and just

the s the miracle of it all, we we thought we would try again for a sibling and you know, of course now I'm a lot older. and but I I mean I started when he was about fifteen months. And yeah, pretty much same thing, you know, the original diagnosis plus diminished ovarian reserve on

Dr. Erica Bove (34:18)
Yeah.

Dr. Dina Wilson (34:22)
Yeah, it's it's wild. It's you know, he's he's a true miracle in every sense of the word, but I feel like

Th there are so many points in our journey where things could have been better addressed. and I can feel a lot of that guilt, like, I wish I knew, you know, I wish I had known in my twenties. Or, you know, I wish I had known to go to an RDI or I wish I had known to freeze my eggs. Granted that probably wouldn't have helped me. I don't know, but

Dr. Erica Bove (34:59)
Right, right, right. It's just yeah, it's like it is it is hard. And I think the guilt, it represents the the feeling of like I did something bad. Right. And like I'm obsessed with like Brene Brown has this awesome book. It's like right over there, like 10 feet to my left. It's called Atlas of the Heart. And she talks about like eight yeah, 88 different emotions and like the definition of each emotion. And you know, but the guilt really is, you know, I have a a physician friend who told me once she was a mentor.

Of mine, she said, you know, guilt is such an expensive emotion. And isn't that true? Guilt is so expensive. It really is. And, you know, one of the problems with guilt, I mean, I I, you know, was raised Catholic. And so like there's there's this this sort of like you atone for your sins and you have all these guilt about your sins. And, you know, I I think that guilt is I did something bad. And then what often happens is that morphs into shame, which is I am bad. Mm-hmm.

And then we get into the shame spiral, right? And so I think you mentioned a lot of points in your journey where you felt shame. And that is something, and I you wrote you right about this too. Like that is something that I think is especially hard as a female physician, is like that guilt shame continuum. And it's really hard to get out of it once we're there.

Dr. Dina Wilson (36:22)
Yeah, it's like how did I not know? I'm a doctor, like, you know, I mean I've called myself every name in the book, you know, like you're a freaking doctor, how could you not know all this? You know, how and how did you not know the IVF doesn't always work? Like you just put your entire life on hold thinking, I'll just do IVF like this was a failsafe, you know, I mean so many so many points of frustration. I don't know. We'll probably go with H my

Dr. Erica Bove (36:50)
Yeah. I mean, so have you are you still pursuing treatment for your second child? Yeah.

Dr. Dina Wilson (36:57)
I am. Even though yeah, they're are not good, but it's just I don't know. It's just one of those things, I guess, that my motto is don't die wondering and maybe some of it is just that first time, you know, with everything being so much against me and things working. Maybe a part of me hopes that I can find something, but I don't know. I mean obviously I'm a lot more wide eyed.

About it now.

Dr. Erica Bove (37:28)
Yeah, yeah. Informs. Yeah.

Dr. Dina Wilson (37:31)
Thank you. That's the word I'm looking for. A lot more informed and you know, I have insight into the situation and although some would disagree, they'll be like, What, you're forty eight trying again? Like this is crazy. But I don't know.

Dr. Erica Bove (37:50)
You said you had the desire in your heart for six and then you adjusted that to four. And that is something I talk a lot about is like, you know, the the goal post and like, you know, does that have to change? Are the like, you know, it's it's a really complicated question. And especially when you've gotten like the taste of motherhood and how beautiful it is, and you got pregnant against all the odds, you know, it like when you have a dream in your heart, you know.

I I understand.

Dr. Dina Wilson (38:20)
It's so so complicated. Like I have days where I'm thinking, you know, like why can't you just be one and done? Like you shift your your grief and your trauma and your guilt shifts to a different frame. Right now I'm like, why can't you just be one and done and grateful for everything that you have? Like he's healthy and you had him at forty two. Like move on with your life. Why? You know, and it's like the cycle of just

Yeah, just constant criticism.

Dr. Erica Bove (38:54)
Yeah, I I mean we know to like I I'm always astounded when I shine a light on my thoughts and feelings, which is essentially coaching, right? Which is to say, like, isn't it interesting how critical we how they have that layer of self-judgment that we don't even like it's insidious and it's almost invisible. But then you're like, wow, would I talk to a friend like I just talked to myself? Probably not. But it's like, you know, we just have years of this ingrained in us and

You know, one thing I love to to talk about in my work with clients is like, okay, how do I want to feel? Like the circumstance is trying to have a second kid. Nobody would argue with that. That is not loaded in any way, that is like as factual as it could be. Nobody in a court of law would argue with that. Right. And so then I think, okay, well, I help my people think what what feeling do you want to have in that context? Is it steady? Is it calm? Is it

Living with regret without regret? Is it you know values-based decisions? Like what is that feeling that you know you or anybody else who's navigating this journey? A secondary infertility, I think, is especially difficult because it's like, it worked once before. Why is it not working again? You know? even if our brains offer us reasons, it's like it's just maddening and frustrating and all those things. And so that's what I love to do is I love to say, okay, well, how do I want to feel?

And you know, maybe it's aligned. Maybe it's like this is an alignment with my vision and my goals. And and so then it's like, okay, well, let's back up and say, well, well, then what would I have to think to feel aligned? And then we generate the mantras, then we generate the thoughts. But I think that is one way that I love to help people in the messy middle of treatments and uncertainty and all those things to say, okay, like I'll know, like I will know when this feels complete.

I will either have another baby or I will get a message from the universe that it is time to stop. But like in in this moment, it does not feel complete. And so we are gonna keep, keep on moving forward with support, with community, with knowledge, you know, like no more, no more messing around, you know, without without all of that. And like you say, like on your website, you say like IVF, actual stats, people need to know.

One size does not fit all. Like there's different we need personalized care. Like, don't do it alone. Get the support you need to navigate this journey. Like wherever that comes from, you know? but like lean in into your loved ones, right? And be prepared to fight, to fight. It's kind of like cancer. People fight cancer, people fight infertility. There's that expression warrior for a reason, you know?

Let go of the guilt.

Dr. Dina Wilson (41:34)
The guilt. The guilt is just awful. The guilt is

Dr. Erica Bove (41:37)
That's a daily discipline of like recognizing it's there, like getting curious about it, letting it go, processing the feelings. It's it's easier said than done. But we feel we can feel so much lighter when we realize we're carrying that backpack and then we are able to finally set it down. It's amazing. Yeah.

Dr. Dina Wilson (41:55)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Erica Bove (41:57)
Because like you can ask yourself the question, did I do something bad? Like at the age of twenty-three, twenty-four, like

Just having compassion for that younger version of yourself, you know, like I've not heard in any of your story that you like went and murdered somebody or went and like, you know, robbed a store or something like that. That's that's like those are things that like people have like actual guilt for. You know what I mean? I'm like, I I don't know, Dina. Like you I mean, yes, we can code stuff as like, I should have done this, I should have done that, I should have done this. But like you trusted your healthcare team and then you decided to become a doctor and put things, you just like

You know, you tabled things because you had priorities, and we all understand that. You know, you one of my mentors said to me, You can have everything you want in life, usually, but just not at the same time. And so, like, you're like, Okay, you know, this is your story. So I I think too, whenever I feel guilt, I try, like as a person who was raised Catholic who, you know, really does believe in forgiveness and like all of those virtues, I think, okay, was the actual

first thing that I'm feeling guilty about is is that something that I did I wrong somebody? You know? And like if I did, then let's bring some forgiveness because that's important. And if I didn't, then let's bring some self compassion.

Dr. Dina Wilson (43:19)
Yes, I totally agree, but it's so hard. So

Dr. Erica Bove (43:21)
It is so hard.

Dr. Dina Wilson (43:23)
hard for me.

Dr. Erica Bove (43:25)
It's hard for everybody, I think, especially female physicians who are responsible for everybody else's care. So it's like, why not be responsible for our own care? But that's that is not how it works, but that's what our brains offer us. I'm curious, you know, being in medicine, being a female physician, how do you think that identity made this more complicated for you?

Dr. Dina Wilson (43:48)
I mean the should, right?

Dr. Erica Bove (43:50)
Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Dina Wilson (43:51)
Should should have, could have, you know. yeah, just a lot of the guilt like in the guilt of should have known, should have advocated, should have tried harder, you know, sh should have not waited six months to do another cycle. I mean that was a big

thing my husband and I, that was like the only thing I think that we actually sometimes want to see eye to eye on. You know, like I had a time where I had a slip disc and it was actually herniated and I ended up needing a dissectomy. But I mean I was literally on the couch writhing in pain, you know, knowing that I was gonna need a procedure. And I brought up, you know, well maybe we can squeeze in another egg tree, you know, an er egg retrieval. And

He said that was the moment I kind of knew. Like he was like, that's when it became clear to me that you would just put your body through anything.

Dr. Erica Bove (44:55)
Yeah.

Dr. Dina Wilson (44:56)
Even if it was at the risk of your own health, to just wow, you know, plow through. Yeah.

Dr. Erica Bove (45:03)
Right.

Dr. Dina Wilson (45:05)
I think, you know, to circle back on your question, just you know.

being doctors, I mean, I think a lot of the burden is that, you know, we're trained, right? We're medically trained. And how did we not know the science or, you know, the data and, you know, how did we not know to better advocate for ourselves? So I just think it's a big complicated guilt sandwich.

Dr. Erica Bove (45:28)
It's yeah, it's really complicated. It really is. And I think that's one of the benefits of of getting support is to challenge the thoughts that don't serve us, challenge the thoughts that aren't true. Cause it's like the water we're swimming in. We don't even know we're swimming in water until it's like, you know, maybe that thought isn't true or maybe that thought's not serving me, or like all those things I think there's a lot of undoing to do. Yeah. yeah.

Dr. Dina Wilson (45:51)
Yeah, totally agree. and you know, I wish I had known like to do to get help sooner, but like I said, like coaches and counselors, I don't think it was as prevalent as it is now. And like even just to go to therapy on it, I mean, working full time as a hospitalist and then doing IVF full time, like there's no time I'm like, I got this. My husband's a doctor, we got good support, we can talk with each other, but I don't know.

Dr. Erica Bove (46:21)
I also find, I mean, I'm about to release a series on like why it's hard to be in certain areas of medicine in particular. And I think hospice schedules, depending on your setting, can be somewhat like limited. Like I actually find that my hospitalist clients are the ones are often the ones who have the hardest time getting to appointments and things because you have your schedule and sometimes it's really hard to trade with people because their schedules are fixed. And so

Yeah. And so I I have a lot of empathy, you know, for the situation of people who are trying to serve the patients. They have this schedule. You know, we talk a lot about how to navigate that, right? But I do think that you have a good point. And, you know, at some level we have to put ourselves first, but it's really, really hard to do when the patients need us to, the system is dependent on us. Yeah.

Dr. Dina Wilson (47:08)
And if anything, like I learned to set boundaries when it came to my schedule, 'cause the first job it was very seven on, seven off, and I had to go from working days to nights. I was like, fine, just put me on nights. And so I would work a shift and drive an hour and a half to Portland. And there were days where I was like literally falling asleep behind the wheel. I'd get my old sound and then come to the car and take a nap for two hours before I could drive back home.

Dr. Erica Bove (47:36)
Mm.

Dr. Dina Wilson (47:38)
And so that was like, you know, I look back now and I'm like, what are you doing? Like, what are you doing? How how do you expect any kind of success during that? But needless to say, I changed jobs and I yeah, I just told them up front, this is what I need. You know, I need this flexibility and you know, I yeah, it was I learned to set a boundary with and set my non negotiable, I guess.

I knew what that was in that particular chapter of my life and Yeah.

Dr. Erica Bove (48:11)
Yeah.

I think that's I just want to echo that. Like you set boundaries, you asked for what you needed, you negotiated for it up front. It's harder if you're in a situation to go back, but yeah, I would say if you had an appendicitis or if you had a new diagnosis of cancer or something, people would figure it out. This is not elective and we have to learn how to advocate for ourselves to get what we need.

Dr. Dina Wilson (48:32)
Yeah, absolutely. Because I mean medicine in its own will take so much out of us. I mean, and it just starts from the beginning and it doesn't end. Like it keeps going. And so at some point you just have to say, Hey, you know, time out. It's it's time out. Yeah.

Dr. Erica Bove (48:51)
That's right. That makes so much sense. my goodness. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story. I've really just so much love and self-compassion and so much gratitude for everything that you've gone through and your willingness to share it with people who are still in the messy middle. Like you said, you're in a second round of messy middle. And so I think the more we can connect, the more we can share our stories. I always say shame cannot exist in isolation. So the minute that we share our truths, share our stories.

let other people know that they're not alone. Like that's like shame can't exist in those spaces. And that's one of the most powerful things we can do, I think, is come together and eradicate the shame and live our best lives, you know? And so is there anything else that you want our listeners to know or hear before we wrap this up today?

Dr. Dina Wilson (49:41)
No, I just want them to know that, you know, they're not alone. You know, we see them and I know it hurts. And I know sometimes no matter what people say or no matter how much someone tries to help you, it feels heavy. And you know, it's okay to sit with it and if if you can find space to to share your journey or find a squad that supports you.

if you can, but just know that you'll get to the other side. I know it's not clear sometimes and sometimes it would frustrate me when I'd hear someone say that, especially when they were on the other side. Yeah. So I definitely wanna give I wanna acknowledge that, that it's hard to hear sometimes, but just know that you're not alone, yeah.

Dr. Erica Bove (50:36)
Yeah.

Beautiful. Dr. Dina, where can people find you? You you're such an advocate. Instagram is my favorite place to find you, but let the people know where they can find you.

Dr. Dina Wilson (50:45)
I

hang out pretty much. That's I can only do one face. at Doctor Dina. So yeah, I mean it's the hodgepodge of everything. Yeah. Big feelings, little feelings, happy moments, just all the emotions.

Dr. Erica Bove (51:00)
Beautiful. and you know, I hope you don't Dr. Dina in your in a hospital bed, but if you do need her in that capacity, she will she is there to serve. Okay. Awesome. Okay. Doctor Dina, thank you so much for for coming on the podcast. And I look forward so so forward to so many of our our future conversations.

Dr. Dina Wilson (51:20)
Likewise, take care. Thank you so much.

Dr. Erica Bove (51:22)
Yep. And to my listeners, you know how much I love you. Until the next time. Bye.